Diet-Proof Your Children with Amelia Sherry RD
“I just want my kids to be healthy.” I hear this cry from parents all the time. It’s also often rooted in the knee-jerk desire to protect our kids from all the scars diet culture left on us. And it’s a good desire! But before we can guide our kids into developing a healthy relationship with food, we have to dig deeper. What do we mean when we say we want our kids to be healthy? And have we analyzed our own relationship with food? Answering these questions is a critical piece of being able to support our kids.
In this episode, I’ve invited Registered Dietitian and author of “Diet-Proof Your Daughter”, Amelia Sherry. She will help us unpack what we really want for our kids, which probably includes having confidence, the ability to enjoy food, as well as the understanding that we don’t all need to be in smaller bodies. We also want to be able to help kids understand how food confidence impacts our social, emotional, and physical health.
Then there’s the fact that even if you’ve done an all-star job of keeping your home free of diet culture, our kids are exposed to misinformation through their friends and social media. Amelia will help us understand how to gently challenge these messages so our kids can think critically about what they choose to put on their plates. There’s a balance to be found between being the food police and allowing kids to have access to kinds of food 24/7. Amelia will help you feel more confident about finding what’s right for your family.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- Why we have to get curious about what “healthy” means for our family
- Why eliminating certain foods altogether often set kids up to fail in the future
- How to help kids understand why we need a variety of food groups to fuel our bodies
- What role pleasure plays in raising intuitive eaters
- How to offer bite-sized bits of nutritional information to educate your kids as they develop
Check out the book here: Diet-Proof Your Daughter
Jenn Huber 00:02
Hi and welcome to the midlife feast the podcast for women who are hungry for more in this season of life. I'm your host, Dr. Jenn Selena Huber. Come to my table, listen and learn from me. Trusted guests, experts in women's health and interviews with women just like you. Each episode brings to the table juicy conversations designed to help you feast on midlife. Hey, their midlife feast family. I am so excited to bring a fellow non diet dietitian Amelia Sherry on to the podcast today. And today we're going to be talking about something that a lot of you have asked for, which is more information about how we can bring this weight inclusive non diet Intuitive Eating approach into our homes, for our families and our children. Amelia has written a book called diet proof your daughter a mother's guide to raising girls who have happy healthy relationships with food, which I honestly think is the best title ever because Don't we all want that. But she is you know, very, very experienced as a pediatric dietitian, especially in navigating some of the bigger harder questions around food and health and nutrition that often come up. So I'm so thankful that she joined me for this conversation. I know that you will enjoy this one a lot. Hi, Amelia. Welcome to the midlife feast.
Amelia Sherry 01:27
Hi, Jen. It's so great to meet you hear in cyberspace. And I'm really excited to talk to you this morning.
Jenn Huber 01:34
I am too and I know that my audience and listeners are going to be glued to parts of this this episode because this conversation around, I want to change my own relationship with food because I want to help protect support, prevent my son, daughter, child, nephew, nice neighbor, cousin, whoever it is, from kind of going through the same thing that I'm going through comes up a lot. So can you tell us a little bit about you and how you get into this work. And boy, this is kind of your your area of passion?
Amelia Sherry 02:11
Sure, well, I am a pediatric dietitian, who that's a second career for me. And my first career was in women's magazines as a writer. If you read my book, you can see the trajectory, I won't go into it. But that was primarily my first career was primarily informed by the fact that I had been struggling with disordered eating from middle school high school 20s. So I sort of made my whole career around it. Because in magazines, I was writing about nutrition, and then workouts and things like that. Eventually, there was sort of a pivot in my life, personal life with my mom was sick. And I decided to go back to school when that was over and become a dietitian. I was also starting a family at that time. And I was very interested in pediatrics. By this time I had healed my relationship with food, I'd say about 90%. So it really wasn't taking up the most of my brain anymore. But it wasn't, I thought it was in a great place. But as you'll see, as I go on, it really wasn't, which I discovered once my kids started becoming a little older. But in working in pediatrics, I found two things. One, weight was a constant issue. This came up over and over again, it was a primary concern, or if there were other concerns, medically that was still always in the background of concern about their weight.
And I worked in endocrinology. So I also had kids who were underweight. But 80% of the time, it was parents being concerned about their child being in a larger body, and children two, which we'll talk about. And the second thing I noticed is that a lot well, first of all, a lot of moms came in for the visit with their child and a lot of things were coming up between from mothers past, like their own thoughts about food, like why were they so concerned about how healthy the food was? Or how whether it was okay to eat? You know, apples is one example that someone asked me, you know, this was informed by the fact that mom had been low carb guiding for decades, you know? So I went on to start writing about it and writing about my own experience in terms of trying to come to grips with what was I really trying to teach my child when it came to food? Was it based on my own concerns about my own body? And, you know, weight things cropping up from years before?
You know or was it really, really focused on what I kept saying, which is, I want my child to be healthy, which is a vague word. You can talk about that as well. So I ended up writing a book about it during the pandemic it got started. There's a lot of personal stories in there. I started by writing wrote in a in a group writing in like community setting online, which was amazing if there's any writers out there highly recommend it. It started during the pandemic I was writing a book on, I'm using air quotes here healthy eating for kids. And I was writing chapters and sort of sharing them with the group. And whenever I shared a personal story, you know, really went on an edge or a ledge I should say, made myself vulnerable, I guess and share things that I had experienced people like really responded in the group, they would say, I love this, more of this more of it. So the I trusted them and went out of my comfort zone and started including a lot more personal stories. And eventually the book morphed into helping you know, mothers help their daughters have healthy positive relationships with food. And that was a long story. But that's how I got here.
Jenn Huber 06:01
But I was shaking my head and you know, nodding my head. And I know that lots of people listening probably would too. And I just want to kind of come back to this idea of, we do all just want our kids to be healthy. Right. And so when I was working, as you know, a naturopathic doctor and dietician and you know, with this general family practice, that is the number one thing people come in, and any questions around food, were usually around, like, I just want my kid to be healthy. And often, I want them to have a better relationship with food than I did. But there was always this often, like little bit of fear behind it. Like I don't want them to experience what I went through. And sometimes that included being in a larger body. They were trying to prevent that. And I think that, you know, it's well intentioned, obviously, like, of course, we all want that for our kids. And so what do you how do you approach that? How do you say, what do you say to a parent who says, you know, I'm trying to give my kids the best possible outcome in every way, but may also involve trying to control what their body looks like. So what does that conversation look like?
Amelia Sherry 07:11
Hmm, great question. So when parents come into my office, one of the questions I'll ask right off the bat, too, I want my child to be healthy. I'll say okay, so what does that mean to you? So you really have to get into the weeds about it, what it what does, what does that means parent, often, they haven't thought about it really, but unpacking that. And though, they might, you know, say they want them to have more energy, and you'll say why you kind of go deeper and deeper and you can do this, yourself, if anyone's listening, you can just say if you ask yourself, you know, what does healthy mean? Or why do I want my child to be healthy?
Or what does health mean to me? And then just keep adding on the question why, why you go deeper and deeper. At the base of that, for a lot of the kids it was I want friends, I want people to like me, I want confidence that is so different than eating fruits and vegetables. You know, this is like we're which is where a lot of parents put the pressure, right. Um, and for moms, you know, always came down to I want, you know, not just moms, all parents, and it came down to wanting to have a good life, you know, so then we can really start looking into it. Because having a good relationship with food requires a lot of trust, Body Trust, so trusting that your body is talking to you, and you're gonna listen to it in terms of how much or how little, what tastes good, what doesn't also trust that your body is going to grow into the body that it's meant to be, you know, maybe it is going to be larger, probably, let's say almost definitely, it's going to be larger than we see over and over.
We just know that that is just very unrealistic. And of course, that just again, starts unpacking more and more things, you know, how do you feel about fat or having that on your body or being fat? How do you you know, what is really the concern? Is it image or is it you know, you can be perfectly healthy, active, energetic, physically, I'll say, being in a larger body, no problem, you know, so these are really our feelings, our thoughts about our body that are getting in the way of building that trust with food that is so necessary when it comes to that part about having a healthy relationship with food? And you can also ask yourself that question, what does and I do this often? And it's in the workbook too. That goes along with the book. What what is a healthy relationship with food? You know, what, what would that look like? For you? Um,
Jenn Huber 09:55
so when what do you say when parents will say, Oh, that all sounds great. ate, I want all of those things for them. But it's still bad to have too much sugar, right? It's still a good thing not to keep XYZ in the house. That's where I find, you know, it's, it all sounds great until we get to the food permission, unrestricted access to food and allowing and giving kids the tools to trust their own bodies. How do you how do you have those conversations? Because those are the ones that I personally find the most difficult, because there's so much food policing that happens in our world, that it's very difficult for anyone who's been in diet culture for their entire life, to believe that you can have candy in the house and that kids won't only choose candy.
Amelia Sherry 10:43
Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, first of all, I don't I would say, is it true that your child can eat sugar, I mean, kids have very high energy needs and glucose, which comes from carbs, whether it's a high fiber carb or Sour Patch Kid, you know, your child does need sugar, they need it for energy, they need it for their brain, to grow and to work. So sort of destigmatizing are inhabiting a lot of these foods, and trying to bring them down into a more neutral place in our minds, is really important. And I don't recommend unrestricted access, especially for younger children, really, parents should be in charge of what is being offered. Because parents are older, and they have experience knowing what makes a balanced meal. Variety is very important, I consider that more important than you know, the content of the fat. Just being exposed to a wide variety. So your child and you get a wide variety of nutrients. And really, the trust would come in and letting your child figure out how much or how little even you know, we have to work high sugar foods in there, I don't recommend keeping them out of the house, because how is your child going to manage when they leave their home, you know, it's and, and this model two, which is called the divisional responsibility, which is a model that providers use when helping parents figure out how to feed positive feeding, you know, strategies with their children, this model changes over time. So over time, as your child gets more skills, you know, moves on with their developmental state stage, you are letting them have more and more responsibility.
So as you know, a preteen or a teen is going to have one meal at least a day where they're going to be in charge of the what, right, because they're gonna be out there. So if they've never, you know, if there's sugar at the candy at this stuff, candy stores, I don't know, if there's sugar at the, you know, at a party or at a friend's house or maybe even sold in their school? How are they going to navigate that if you've kept it out of your home for you know, forever? I mean, the idea that your child, I would say if they say I can't have during the home, my child's going to you know, just eat it all. That is something we need to work on together. You know why? Why we call that loss of control around food? Why is your child feeling that they just need to eat as much as they possibly can? Yes, it tastes good, and it is good. But there is a point where that sort of satisfaction does diminish, and it's with repeated exposure. So that's something we can work on. Was that helpful?
Jenn Huber 13:33
Yeah. And thank you for clarifying what I meant by unrestricted access, meaning that like no foods were labeled as bad or never on offer. And so yes, the division of responsibility with younger children is a great tool. And you mentioned the birthday parties. It reminds me of a few years ago, at one of my children's birthday party, there was a child there who was essentially not participating in the actual activities of the party, and was openly you know, saying, I'm eating everything I can before my mom picks me up, because I never get these things.
And thankfully, was very, he was very happy. But I don't think that he experienced any kind of, you know, shame around it. But I think that it was such an important reminder that, you know, if we don't allow anyone, kids or adults to have access to foods that they enjoy as part of what is available to them, it really raises the bar on the craving, it creates the craving so that when they do have the ability to choose it, they can't see anything else that's there, because they're just so focused on meeting that need and craving. So, yeah, thank you for bringing that up, too. So your book diet proof your daughter. I love the title of it, because I think we all want that for our sons and our daughters. But what what are some of the steps that you outline? How do you talk to people? moms who are often you know, professional dieters have only ever been on a diet. They now see the role that they're playing in their child. relationship with food, and they want to make some changes, how? How do you even help them figure out where to start?
Amelia Sherry 15:07
So that's a great question. So the first place I recommend starting is thinking about your own relationship with food, which can actually be very challenging. In the book, I start with my whole history and you know, going back, but sort of kind of being open to really examining, like, what has it been, because some people don't even realize, you know, that, you know, how harmful or uncomfortable or stressful it is just to be sort of micromanaging in your mind all the time, all the things that you did eat or didn't need, or monitoring your weight, that is a huge load in our minds. And we have been conditioned to think because of diet, culture, and even health culture now, that that is like the way we have to be that's normal, you know, and that is not normal at all. I talk about building something called eating competence. And so we, which is really what normal eating is that supports emotional health, physical health and social health. So sort of broadening what going back to that initial question, like, what do you actually want for your child? If it is to have a healthy relationship with food, to feel at ease around food, to feel comfortable eating to enjoy food, then we have to get away from this sort of dieting, mentality restriction mentality, all together, because that does not support us emotionally. And socially, it can create a lot of problems.
Jenn Huber 16:40
Yeah. And I often will point out, you know, to parents, has it worked for you? You know, and when they'll say, Well, no, but I must have done something wrong. And so I'm trying to fix that. It's just that restriction, continued restriction, constantly thinking about food and trying to, you know, micromanage every meal and snack is is unsustainable for anyone. And you know, especially kids who are growing and learning and full of energy and, you know, doing all the things that we want them to do. You know, putting that putting that on them, and their relationship with food is not going to help them either.
Amelia Sherry 17:20
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, dieting is the leading cause of eating disorders. So we certainly I think parents know, intuitively that they don't want to push a diet button. Healthy Eating is where things get a little murky, right, because what is healthy eating? You know, it does, it can start to look like dieting in terms of restricting, like you mentioned, only eating certain foods or food groups, because they've been deemed, you know, air quotes healthy, that rigidity and limitations with food is very sort of evocative of having a not an eating disorder, but sort of the beginning of that which is disordered eating. And it can really start to progress and children, you know, fairly quickly, because they are more likely to misinterpret that, you know, they see the black and white, they don't see sort of the nuances there with with the health. Yes, Hopefully, that's helpful.
Jenn Huber 18:16
So what do you do then, so let's kind of move on from parents who are trying to change things to a parent who's maybe concerned that diet culture has crept in to their daughter's world, or their sons, but you know, their their teen or their tweens world. So this happens also, unfortunately, with increasing frequency that someone will have worked really hard to create this kind of food neutral home. And then, you know, your kids go out into the world, and you can't control everything that they're exposed to, and they start coming home with, I don't want to eat sugar, because I've heard it's bad or you have, you know, influences from school that are, you know, maybe introducing language that you've worked really hard to keep out of your home. What are what are some of the things that parents can do then to provide that extra layer of insulation?
Amelia Sherry 19:05
Yeah, so offering them all the education that you've now gotten about what actually constitutes a balanced healthy relationship with food can be sort of challenging them, you know, like leach sort of did with the sugar. Oh, actually, you know, sugar, your body does need some carbohydrates, we it's okay to have sugar. You know, sometimes always developmentally appropriate. You know, you don't need to go into all the details of nutrition unless what I always recommend is offering a little detail and then letting your child if they ask for more info, provide it. What are some of the other things you think a child might come home saying Aside from this, like sugar?
Jenn Huber 19:45
Well, I think often it's just this idea that especially if their body maybe doesn't meet the thin ideal, that you know, they need to start changing their food and what they eat and how they move to change their body. I mean, that's obviously a complicated question because there's so many things to it. But that's kind of the flip side is that I often will, we'll hear that from parents of people that I've worked with for years who have, you know, tried to create this and or an undying at their house. And then the kids go off to junior high school and they come home and they start talking about how so and so is bringing these keto bars and they're supposed to be healthier.
This is one that came up recently that their child wanted to buy these keto granola bars from Costco because it's what all the friends were eating, because they were healthier. And so, you know, I had suggested that maybe they start with like, do they like them? Like, you know, is it a taste that they enjoy? Is it something that they want and then go from there? But what are some other ways that they can maybe manage those conversations?
Amelia Sherry 20:47
On the case of a Keto bars, what you said, it's great, great advice, you know, with pleasure. And I'd love to talk about pleasure with food, because that often gets very confused. People. I would guess more because I'm a dietitian, my mind went right to oh, well, keto means low carbohydrate, and you need carbohydrates, the only you know, your body needs carbohydrates to function, there's no reason for you to limit them, you know, and then I might go into if you like, and I don't mind you eating, and let's see what's in it, as long as there's no chemicals or whatever your values are, you know, around food, and then built the larger conversation.
And the thing your child needs to know is that if they are pursuing weight loss or wanting to eat this way to be thinner, these larger conversations need to happen about the idea that there is this cultural pressure to be in a certain body. But that is not how I value you. And that's not how our family values you. And it's they need, you know, it's unrealistic to look these different ways. What is it that you're really, you know, asking them like, what is it that you're really concerned about? Think about also the cost of trying to pursue some of these diets. If your child is older, you know, what would you give up? It would mean, not being able to enjoy a meal and having to say no at parties.
Over time, you might not even be able to do you know, you might be cutting out large food groups, and you could even become malnourished, so like, is that really worth it to be in a body that actually isn't really healthy for you? So really, kind of drawing attention having these like critical discussions, I guess about what, what is it? Why is everyone trying to eat keto, and eat low carb? And is that really healthy for us? How could that get in the way of, you know, other things that your child is very interested in and passionate about? Sometimes, you know, being a counselor, you know, we really use motivation from within each person. So if a child is into sports, you know, I could help outline like how this is really going to harm their performance. I've done it, we've talked about it in so many different contexts, not just activity, you know, which school you've been having trouble concentrating on your test, could it be that, you know, you're not getting enough calories, or if a child is feeling really irritable and unhappy, that's a sign of being malnourished and not getting enough from day to day. So really pointing out what the cost might be for them, if they're there, where to start cutting out foods or food groups, so you want to keep it nutrition, and also, like, broader and relevant to them.
Jenn Huber 23:29
I love that. And I love starting out with saying like, you know, the reasons that we love you and that the people in your life love you isn't because of your body. You know, I think that just recognizing that, you know, body acceptance, is is really helps us to feel like we belong. And that's often why people want to change their bodies is because they don't feel like they belong. And you put that, you know, you throw that into puberty and the tween years and all of the hormone changes that are happening. It's really, really understandable why, you know, it's that vulnerable age that we want to be on the lookout for. But let's come back to pleasure because I love talking about pleasure as a way to reconnect with food and to really let it be, you know, I think we even have an episode, you know, as pleasure the missing ingredient in midlife because so often we're making decisions for food around like, Oh, I'm eating this because it's high protein, high fiber, whatever that and really kind of connecting that food is a sensory experience is something that I love talking about. So what do you say about pleasure? How do you talk about it?
Amelia Sherry 24:29
I want to talk about that in a moment. If you don't mind if I go back to the body body resilience, resilience is something that I work on with kids and adults, adult women and that is really being resilient against that pressure that is out there for our bodies to conform to some norm. So understanding it's out there, but that we don't need to conform to it. And if you are just one I think this might be helpful for parents if this comes up with children. When we talk about values do they value their friend you know you can point out do you value them? Would you like them more? Would you? You know, have more fun with them? If they were in a smaller body, you know, what do you like about them their humor, you know, their, their kindness, their courage, like so you can help really drive that point home that this isn't something of value that we need to kind of internalize and they might they're probably aren't doing it at all, already they're seeing other qualities.
Well, that's a critical component with food. We are pleasure seeking beings, and especially and that helps, you know, continue our whole entire, you know, humanity, right, we're seeking pleasure, bodily pleasure, pleasure. With food, we need to eat foods we enjoy so that we continue seeking out food and seeking out the experience of eating like think of that in a more primitive sense. You're not going to put in the labor. You hunt, gather all those things, if food doesn't taste so good, right. And if you're in touch with your body, and you notice, hey, I'm not eating, I'm feeling really, really bad. You know, it works in modern day as well, food takes a lot of energy, right? We have to plan out meals, we have to shop for the meals, we have to prepare the meals, we have to clean up after the meals that better tastes good. Whatever I'm going, I am not going to go out of my way to do that for you. No, no, no, no disrespect to romaine lettuce because I love it. But I'm not going to do that for a couple pieces, you know, Romaine and a grilled chicken like, and that's why these sort of restrictive diets that don't include pleasure and enjoyment really fail. I mean, you're not you who wants it's you're just not going to put in the energy of really making it incredible. And enjoyment also helps us feel relaxed at meals, which is a very critical in terms of being able to tune into your body. Do you talk about intuitive eating on
Jenn Huber 27:03
all the time all the time? Yeah, so you
Amelia Sherry 27:07
cannot be an intuitive eater. And this goes to for children, you know, if your child is stressed out, because they know you're managing their food, like eat more of this, don't eat more of that. They're not listening to their body at all right? So sort of being in a positive pleasurable state of mind can make things so much easier. So that's one way to think about food and enjoyment. If you think about the way our culture looks at food, it is all about fear, avoidance, don't over indulge, we are taught to you know it right down to the way the USDA like presents food, food, you know, recommendations and rules. It's all based in fear. And it is not helpful at all, for us. So really thinking about enjoying a meal, just like we talked about, you know, enjoying activity, you're not going to want to be active, if it's something that feels obligatory, like punishment or something that you know, you're doing to make up for some sin you committed with food, you want to find enjoyable things that just, you know, help you feel good with activity and with food.
Jenn Huber 28:18
Yeah, I love that. I haven't actually heard that motivation described that way before that, you know, if we're, if, if our food doesn't taste good, we're less motivated to want it. That is I think that's a real nugget from this episode, that I know that lots of people will enjoy. So thank you so much for that. You know, I think satisfaction is and pleasure is something that people who have restricted for a long time fear because they associate food that tastes good with food that they can't control. And so when I'm working with them to become intuitive eaters, or to kind of let go some of those food rules, I really encourage them to welcome it back. It's like, allow your tastebuds to actually lead you to what you want so that you can experience satisfaction. Because it is really powerful. It's so hard to feel full if you're not satisfied and enjoying your food and experiencing the pleasure of eating is such a huge part of that.
Amelia Sherry 29:19
Yeah, we actually have two different stopping points when it comes to eating so like we we eat until we feel fault physically following sort of notice that in our gut, right, but there that can happen before or after the stopping point with satisfaction which is really that pleasure and food. So this An example would be going back to that grilled chicken, Romaine protein and fat and fiber really satiating because they take a long time to digest. So you could eat a lot of chickens and low fat chicken you're like this is we're on a keto diet I guess right now. Um and you're feeling physically full, but you haven't met that satisfaction factor. So you're still food seeking, right. And that's what happens a lot again, with with dieting and you're in limiting and cutting out. I think looking for pleasure, you know, if that's hard for people they don't because you mentioned like we're so used to just fearing losing days, I think the way I teach nutrition is all about variety in foods being a hallmark of good health. So getting all of these vitamins and minerals that we need phytochemicals, antioxidants, things that, you know, we don't eat aren't even very well understood, there's probably so many other compounds that we don't even know about.
And they work synergistically in foods meaning together when they're in our food and with other foods combining an example is fat soluble vitamins like vitamin A and vitamin D, you need to eat some fat with them in order to help to absorb them. where I'm going with this is think about food seeking, think about I need variety in my diet, and I need to eat a lot of different foods that is going to keep you well nourished. And if the food tastes good, it is easier to eat that variety, right? So putting some butter on some vegetables or some olive oil, you know, on vegetables, depending you know, and what your goals are with food can make it taste it's just more satisfying. In our mouths. It's more pleasurable. So if that means I'm going to eat more vegetables, and get the you know, potassium, things like that, then that's great. That's wonderful.
Jenn Huber 31:40
Yeah. Thank you so much. I really have enjoyed our conversation, I know that it will be well loved by listeners. So as I always ask my guests, is there anything that you would describe as the missing ingredient in midlife?
Amelia Sherry 31:59
I think Fun, fun. I just want to start midlife. I'm 48. I just turned 48. And I just want to start remembering what it felt like to be in my 20s and just really looking for fun, fun things to do. Lighten up. And I hope that more of that. I think it is yeah, yeah.
Jenn Huber 32:21
Yeah, I definitely think that midlife is a great time to rediscover what's fun and what you enjoy, and to let go of what's not fun and what you don't enjoy. It's kind of the perfect mix. So if people want to learn more about you and your book and what you do, where can they learn from you.
Amelia Sherry 32:41
They can go to nourish her.com So nourish her with two H's. You can. There are many resources there, you can download a free chapter of the book, you could order the book, you can do listen to an audio guide on protecting your daughter from diet culture. You can enroll in the mini building body rim resilience course, you could do the first awesome lesson there if you want for free Yeah, go go there and you can find some some more things to help you.
Jenn Huber 33:16
Thank you. And we'll have all the links in the show notes for anyone who's looking. Thank you so much for your time, Amelia. It's been really great chatting with you. And thank you for sharing your wisdom.
Amelia Sherry 33:26
Thank you, Jen.
Jenn Huber 33:28
Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the midlife feast. For more non diet health hormone and general midlife support. Click the link in the show notes to learn how you can work and learn from me. And if you enjoyed this episode and found it helpful, please consider leaving a review or subscribing because it helps other women just like you find us and feel supported in midlife.
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